Using No-Code and AI to Launch and Grow Your Business
Curious how you can build powerful tech solutions without writing a single line of code—or hiring a developer?
In this episode of The Las Vegas IT Podcast, we talk with Xan, founder of Drive Phase Consulting, about how no-code tools and AI are helping small businesses move faster, save money, and stay competitive.
Xan shares his personal journey from tech curiosity to launching a firm that helps businesses thrive without traditional coding. He dives into the real benefits of using no-code platforms to save time and money, and how AI tools can simplify operations—even for non-technical founders.
But that’s not all. Xan also outlines common missteps entrepreneurs make when first stepping into the tech space and emphasizes the importance of truly understanding customer needs before jumping into building a product.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
- How no-code tools are helping founders build faster and cheaper.
- Why small businesses should integrate AI into their operations today.
- Mistakes to avoid when launching your first tech product.
- The top free and paid resources to help you start building.
If you’re a founder or business leader curious about building tech solutions without hiring developers, or you want to learn how to make AI work with your team—not replace them—you’ll want to tune in to this inspiring conversation with Xan.
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Transcript
We've done a lot of AI phone agents.
2
:One law firm had an issue with getting clients to medical exams and they were losing money
as result to no shows.
3
:So we actually built out kind of a full flow.
4
:Once the exam was scheduled, then we would send out reminders.
5
:If that client didn't respond to a reminder, we would actually have an AI agent call them
and say, hey, are you going to be attending?
6
:And if they said no, then they would remind them, hey, there are...
7
:legal and financial ramifications for you not attending.
8
:So welcome to the Las Vegas IT Podcast.
9
:My name is Shatoya and today I do have the pleasure of speaking to San.
10
:Super excited, get to know him a little bit better.
11
:He is the founder of Driveface Consulting.
12
:How are you doing today, San?
13
:I'm good.
14
:Thanks for having me today.
15
:Yeah, and I'm super excited to get to know you a little bit better.
16
:Could you just tell us a little bit about yourself and what brought you to be the founder
of Dry Face Consulting?
17
:Yeah.
18
:So, uh, so yes, as you said, I'm the founder of dry face consulting.
19
:And I started this in about 2022, I believe something like that.
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:So dry face consulting is a no code app development firm.
21
:we build custom apps using no code, you know, kind of what I always tell people is, you
know, through no code, we saved our clients over a million dollars in app development
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:costs.
23
:And so, you know, kind of, you know, how I got into it, I always liked to share this story
is during the pandemic.
24
:my daughter, her only child kept, her highlight was the ice cream truck and she kept
missing the ice cream truck.
25
:And she finally said, Hey dad, can we build an app to track the ice cream truck?
26
:And as a girl dad, was like, I said, yes, we're going to make it happen.
27
:And then I looked into how much it would cost and I was like, can't make that happen.
28
:So I ended up learning how to build in a platform called bubble, which is a no code
platform.
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:And we built the app.
30
:We actually ended up getting the app license from a food truck association in Wisconsin.
31
:And it just, it opened my eyes as someone who never programmed before it was, I tell
people it was like getting a superpower all of a sudden where, know, before, know, you
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:couldn't build anything and all of a sudden you could build whatever you want.
33
:And it really kind of opened my eyes and it kind of led to me building for my own
businesses and then eventually building for other businesses, their products.
34
:So.
35
:got it.
36
:So it all started from help assisting your daughter build an app.
37
:That's how it started actually.
38
:100 % true story.
39
:That's a very interesting story to hear.
40
:guess what was your biggest struggle doing that?
41
:So again, I come from someone that doesn't have any coding background.
42
:I will say one thing that did help me quite a bit was in a past life for one of my
businesses, I did learn how to use Microsoft Access, which if you look at the no code
43
:platforms, there's a lot of similarities between Microsoft Access and the no code
platform.
44
:So that gave me a basic understanding.
45
:But if I didn't have that, you know, it's just a completely different world, you know,
going from
46
:you know, never coding to, you know, even though it's no code, you still have to
understand the logic and things like that of, you know, programs.
47
:So I think that's kind of always been the biggest struggle is just kind of learning that
type of logic, that type of thinking.
48
:Got it.
49
:And when you say mention Microsoft access, people may not understand exactly what that is.
50
:Can you just share with us what that is?
51
:Yeah, so.
52
:I think I think they still I think it's so so Microsoft Access is you know part of the
office suite and so it is a tool.
53
:It's a database tool so you could build your own database using Microsoft Access and.
54
:It was in a lot of ways kind of a no code app development cool.
55
:You know they probably didn't call it that at the time because it you know no code wasn't
a thing back then, but you know for one of my businesses we.
56
:we did event planning in the healthcare industry for pharmaceutical companies.
57
:did, at one point we did close to thousand meetings a year.
58
:And so I had to build a database to track all those events, manage all the logistics of
it.
59
:So, and it was just a lot more efficient than doing it in Excel and other tools.
60
:So I built kind of a full platform where we could enter all the information, share
information with the pharmaceutical reps we worked with.
61
:So.
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:But yeah, I don't see access being quite as prevalent as it was back in, you know, we're
looking at early:
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:that.
64
:Understood.
65
:So it a quiet, a little while ago, early 2000s, which is crazy to think that it's already
:
66
:And it sounds like you've done a lot of different things, but how did you get into helping
small businesses?
67
:Well, I mean, it's the natural place to start, right?
68
:When I started the business is one of the first kind of marketing tool, you know,
activities I did was join B &I, if you're familiar with that.
69
:And so for those that aren't, it's a business networking international, believe is what it
stands for.
70
:And so I had a group of 50 plus businesses that are all local.
71
:And so it really got my start.
72
:We've kind of since kind of moved towards bigger businesses, but, you know, it's just
smaller businesses are easier to access.
73
:The sales cycle isn't going to be as long as these bigger businesses.
74
:So just kind of a natural place to get started.
75
:But one challenge that we really started to encounter with the small business market is a
lot of the small business owners don't necessarily understand the technology.
76
:And more importantly, from our standpoint as a business owner, they didn't understand the
value of the technology.
77
:Right.
78
:And so, you know, we really found a lot, found it challenging to do this profitably.
79
:with small businesses because they didn't have the budget.
80
:They didn't understand the value of the budget.
81
:So we were getting nickel and dimed on these smaller projects that we were undercharging
for.
82
:so it just, you know, that's why we started to go after some of these larger projects.
83
:Got it.
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:No, and I totally get it.
85
:Like the feeling that when you under, under charge.
86
:And so one of the things that you did mention was no code tools.
87
:Could you just share with us exactly what does that mean?
88
:Sure, now I get that question quite a bit.
89
:So no code tools, platforms.
90
:So some of the main ones that we're using right now are bubble.io, zeno.com, weweb.io,
Flutterflow.
91
:So these are tools that allow us to build fully functional applications without writing a
lot of code.
92
:Now, in some cases, we can add a layer of code on top when we need to, but generally
speaking, can build a very complex application without.
93
:writing a lot of code.
94
:So no code is really, it's programming, but it's visual programming.
95
:So when I talk to people, when you, when you talk about business application, the core,
every business application is going to look different, but at its core, a lot of it is
96
:creating data, updating data, manipulating data, displaying data.
97
:Right.
98
:And so there are, you know, kind of building block functions that, go into a lot of
applications that are similar.
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:So
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:with these no code tools, a lot of those functions are built into the tool and it's kind
of drag and drop kind of sequencing those building blocks together in a way to build the
101
:application that you want.
102
:And then you can add conditions as, know, do this, you know, if then type stuff, you can
build that, that conditional stuff and, and additional functionality into the app.
103
:And so you kind of, by using these prebuilt modules, so to speak,
104
:It really speeds up the time of development quite a bit.
105
:So for instance, we actually had one recently that we just finished up.
106
:Now this is probably the largest one we did.
107
:When they came to us, they had an estimate on a project they wanted to do of over half a
million dollars.
108
:We ended up doing it for right on 40,000.
109
:So I mean, we saved them close to a half a million dollars on that project.
110
:So now again, not all projects are that big just to kind of just to be clear, but that
gives you a sense of the scope.
111
:And we have a couple right now where their estimates are in four to 900 K and we'll
probably be in the 25 to 50 K for those.
112
:And again, these are large, large projects, you know, on the lower end will be, you know,
five K to 25, you know, 15 K kind of on the lower end of what we do as well.
113
:But, it's a pretty significant difference.
114
:But again, at the end of the day, no code is visual programming.
115
:The biggest takeaway though is
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:you're able to build applications significantly faster and as a result, save a lot of cost
as well because of that time savings.
117
:Got it.
118
:And that's a lot of savings.
119
:And so I just want to make sure I fully understand.
120
:And if I have questions, I'm sure our audience will as well.
121
:So you're saying because the no code tools, that's the reason why instead of someone
paying a half a million dollars, they're only paying like $40,000.
122
:Is that what I'm hearing?
123
:Correct.
124
:Yeah.
125
:Awesome.
126
:And I was like, oh, that's crazy.
127
:And I feel like at the same time, as long as the tools that you're currently putting into
place, as long as they work, really all the businesses really care about.
128
:Absolutely.
129
:And I'll tell you kind of two other benefits of it, right?
130
:So number one is the speed of the initial build is definitely a benefit for sure.
131
:But what we found over and over again is once you build that initial product, 99.9 % of
the time what you build initially, know, there's people just use it in different ways.
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:There's just different things that you don't expect.
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:once you build it.
134
:So really the work happens once you put that product out in the market.
135
:Once you get feedback, you then go take that feedback incorporated into that product and
iterate on it.
136
:Again, that's where no code really, really starts to shine is because you can incorporate
that feedback so quickly.
137
:The second thing that I'll mention is that in the past, coding used to be such a specific
skill that not a lot of people had.
138
:Right.
139
:And so what you saw was the people that were coders or what I call builders, a lot of
times didn't understand the audience they were building for, didn't understand the product
140
:they were using, you building for, didn't understand the use cases that they were building
for.
141
:Now with no code, you can allow people that don't have that coding background that aren't
as technical to be able to build those products.
142
:And so now you have people that are users and product people also become builders.
143
:And so I think what you're going to see is, is, is better products as a result because
they understand, you know, what they're building a lot of times with our clients.
144
:What they'll tell us is what they appreciate most about it.
145
:Cause I come from a non-technical background.
146
:What they appreciate is you understand what you're building more than other teams that
we've talked to.
147
:Right.
148
:And so I think, cause I come from a business background first.
149
:So I understand the business side and I'm able to kind of inject that insight while I also
understand what it takes to build it.
150
:So.
151
:So I really think kind of decreasing kind of closing the divide between building and using
the product, think is another benefit of NoCo.
152
:Understood.
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:I had a lot of things come to mind when you were talking.
154
:And so I guess one of my questions that I did think about is what, when it comes to your
clients, for one, what, what type of customer are you currently looking for?
155
:And then another, is there a particular application that you guys build?
156
:So what kind of client?
157
:I think we're still learning.
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:I think we kind of started broad with the intent of trying to find a niche.
159
:There was always a saying, find your niche to get rich.
160
:And I do believe in that generally.
161
:But when you start, if you pick a niche, it's somewhat arbitrary.
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:So you need to figure out, where are we good?
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:Where is the market?
164
:Where is the appetite for it?
165
:So we are starting to get more activity in the health care market.
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:And so that's, you know, one area.
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:The big one that we did was in the kind of the financial services field.
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:So a lot of our activity right now is in the healthcare marketing.
169
:We do have some ed educational industry items, but where, so those are kind of some of
the, some of the types of verticals that we're going after.
170
:Like we did a lot in the home services market to start with, but again, those were kind of
local small businesses that, that, you know, I think we're
171
:maybe trying to get away from a little bit now.
172
:We also have a lot of startups that are trying to kind of build their initial product.
173
:And in a lot of cases with no code, they can get that initial product out there without
having to raise a lot, if possibly no money at all.
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:And so that's been kind of very helpful as well.
175
:So we're hoping to get with a lot of startups early on, grow with them as they grow, we
can kind of grow with them as well.
176
:There might have been a second part of that question.
177
:missed.
178
:So not really, I'll be honest.
179
:And in some sense, we almost like kind of doing everything custom.
180
:I think part of the thing that we enjoy, I tell people we're not really a technology
company.
181
:We're a problem solving company.
182
:So just so happens that technology is the tool that we use to build, to solve problems.
183
:So really, I always like to understand what the problem is and then design a solution
around that.
184
:So there might be some efficiencies in kind of building the same thing over and over
again.
185
:know,
186
:We may eventually get to that as we get kind of more projects under our belt and we see
kind of some opportunities.
187
:But to date, I mean, we've built web-based internal tools.
188
:We've got consumer mobile apps on the Android and iPhone stores.
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:So it's really been kind of a pretty broad range of applications that we've built.
190
:Okay, no, it's good to know, because I I feel like I run across a lot of different people.
191
:So it's good to know kind of the applications that you can help businesses or small
businesses, which I think is super, super important.
192
:And then, one of the big topics lately that we've been talking about on this podcast is
AI.
193
:It's been a huge topic.
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:How can a small business use AI to make these things go faster?
195
:That's such a loaded question.
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:mean, it's virtually limitless.
197
:I'll do my best to give you some high level examples of things that we work on because as
you can imagine, a lot more of the applications we work on are the clients want to
198
:incorporate AI.
199
:So some of the things we've done recently are ah we've done a lot of AI phone agents,
which has been cool.
200
:So actually for a law firm, one law firm had an issue
201
:with getting clients to medical exams and they were losing money as a result to no shows.
202
:So we actually built out kind of a full flow that once it was once the exam was scheduled,
then we would send out reminders.
203
:If the if that client didn't respond to a reminder, we would actually have an AI agent
call them and say, hey, you know, are you are you know, are you going to be attending?
204
:And if they said no, then they would remind them, hey, there are legal and financial
205
:you know, ramifications for you not attending.
206
:And, you know, if they still weren't, you know, going to go, then we can have them
transferred to the actual office to handle it.
207
:And so, you know, we've had a couple of virtual receptionists.
208
:So that's kind of one that we've done and chat bots are kind of in that same bucket, but
we've also incorporated AI within applications.
209
:So I built a tool recently.
210
:I was trying to learn a new platform, a new NoCo platform.
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:And so whenever I spend time on doing that,
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:I always want to build something that could be useful for myself.
213
:And so I built a tool, it's called Signalboard, signalboard.io, where we use it for lead
generation, where we basically monitor keywords, mentions on LinkedIn, Reddit, and
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:Twitter.
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:And so we bring it, so I put in the keywords I want every day, it brings in all the
mentions on those social media channels into the platform.
216
:And so I use AI in two ways.
217
:So number one is,
218
:When I set up the keyword, tell, I put in, this is the type of person I'm looking for.
219
:I want someone that wants to spend money on this, right?
220
:And so the first thing it does, it evaluates that and it puts it into low intent, high
intent.
221
:So then when I go into the signal board, it kind of pulls out the ones that are
potentially high intent.
222
:It's not perfect and I probably need to tweak that prompt, but it does its job.
223
:Then the second piece is I give it information of, well, for these people, here's the
service I want to offer.
224
:Here's the call to action that I want.
225
:So what happens is it'll actually draft a response for me to that mention.
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:And so what's nice is I monitor about 15 keywords.
227
:So it takes me about a half hour to go through all the mentions every day.
228
:And so that's been kind of another way.
229
:We've also been doing ones where using AI to help with the estimation process for
contractors.
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:We're using with with
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:you know, construction plans, you know, to make this help, help, you know, decisions in
the healthcare industry where they're evaluating, okay, here, you know, people that are
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:applying for certain things, they can, you know, if we give them here, the guidelines, we
can have them, you know, help make decisions.
233
:You know, there's a couple other applications.
234
:I can't be too specific with them, but, there's other applications in the healthcare
market that we're looking at as well to utilize AI.
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:So.
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:You know, what's different about AI is...
237
:it, you know, in the past with automation, it was either kind of a yes, no, you you needed
a very specific answer to be able to use, you know, an application to help you with
238
:decisions.
239
:With AI, you add almost a subjective element to it where it can help with evaluation and,
you know, decision making.
240
:And that's what I think makes it so unique about the technologies.
241
:We've never had that technology.
242
:And it becomes so accessible now that it really can
243
:Again, it's almost limitless what a small business couldn't do with AI, 100%.
244
:Got it.
245
:No, and it's very exciting.
246
:You know, the direction that we're going with AI.
247
:And I look forward to hearing more about your estimating software, because I'm sure our
estimators would love to hear about that.
248
:And then so when it comes to, you know, let's just say someone is interested in building
an app or, you know, some type of tech product, where should they start?
249
:So what we've seen over and over again is a bunch of people that say they want to build a
product and they come to us and they really don't have a clear vision of what they want to
250
:build.
251
:so where it always starts, know, there's a, there's a, I'll kind of give you a couple
different perspectives on this.
252
:So number one is, you know, for startups, a lot of times what we see is they have a great
idea on a product.
253
:But I always tell them that, you cause I also mentor an accelerator program as well is I
tell people, if you're trying to monetize the product, your number one job is to make sure
254
:you're, you're working on a problem that's painful enough that someone will pay for a
solution.
255
:Cause nine times out of 10, I see it all the time and I've done it myself where you built
a product.
256
:It just doesn't solve a pain point and people aren't willing to pay for it.
257
:So that's number one is to, to validate that as quickly as possible.
258
:Sometimes you can do that without even building a product, but
259
:Let's kind of skip ahead because I think kind of this is more of what you're asking, I
believe, is once you decide you want to build a product, you really want to think through
260
:and map out who are the types of users are going to use it.
261
:What do I want that user to go?
262
:You what do I want the user to do step by step?
263
:Exactly what do I want them to do?
264
:And so a lot of people just haven't thought that out.
265
:And then, you know, if you have thought that out.
266
:What we found is the most effective next step is to go through what we call a wireframing
process, where we map out what we call that user journey, user experience, and then we
267
:actually design uh out every major screen in the app.
268
:That process, what we've seen over and over again, is it forces the users to make
decisions and think through, okay, what is it that we're really trying to make?
269
:what do I want that user to do because when they actually see it, because a lot of times
people think they know what they want and then they see it and it just goes a different
270
:direction.
271
:So that wirefaring process has been a really key part and I would tell people whenever
possible don't skip over that because it can really help you really increase your chances
272
:of building a successful product.
273
:Got it.
274
:And so you did share with us a little bit about the process.
275
:I mean, is there anything else that someone should know?
276
:Like how long does it take to build an app or anything like that?
277
:That's very important.
278
:Kind of on the low end, mean, that signal board product I literally built in three weeks.
279
:And that was only because I was only using that platform for the first time.
280
:So the reality is I probably could have built that a little bit faster if I, you know, if
that hadn't been the first time I've used that, that no code platform, you know, that big
281
:product, that project that we worked on that I told you for 40 K that ended up taking
about five months.
282
:The reality is my recommendation would be, speaking, if you're building a brand new
product, there's going to be exceptions to this rule.
283
:But generally speaking, if it takes more than four weeks in no code, you've probably tried
to do too much with it.
284
:What we've seen is if you try and do too much with your initial product, the reality is if
you build a new product, a new tech product,
285
:You're going to have bugs in it.
286
:There's going to be some things that you just don't expect.
287
:And if you try and have too many features in that first launch product, you're just trying
to fight too many battles on too many fronts.
288
:And so you can, if you can prioritize, okay, here's the number one thing I want this to
do.
289
:We focus on that, nail that, and then incrementally adding features after that becomes a
whole lot easier versus trying to dump a whole bunch of features into that initial
290
:product.
291
:That would be another.
292
:big recommendation, I would say.
293
:So if you do see it taking more than a month, then the reality is you might have tried to
do too much with it.
294
:And a lot of times I do try and pare people down.
295
:There's some products just because of nature, maybe that's not possible, but for the most
part, I would say most people should be aiming to do, have something that they can launch
296
:within four weeks.
297
:Because they say the sooner you can get to learning, the better, right?
298
:Got it.
299
:No, and that's great to know for someone has a timeline kind of like, okay, this is how
long it's going to take.
300
:But I do also like what you said, like, you know, you want to start, start small and then
grow from there.
301
:That's kind of what I got from that, which I mean, the same thing with anything that you
do in life.
302
:If you can't try to handle too much, like a lot of times it just either doesn't get done
or you've wasted time on certain things that shouldn't be done, you know, that didn't need
303
:to be done.
304
:And then when it comes to.
305
:you know, like what are some of the mistakes that you see from small business owners that
when it comes to tech, you know, and creating an app that you've seen and then how do they
306
:avoid those mistakes?
307
:I'll be honest, so I probably mentioned a few of them, but I mean, think the mistake most
small business owners make is not doing anything, honestly, if I'm being honest with you.
308
:feel like small, what I'm so excited about is the two technologies we work with the most
are AI and no code.
309
:AI no code have made allowed for kind of enterprise level technology.
310
:It's really democratizing it where it's making it accessible to these small organizations.
311
:Now it might be a little bit more of an investment than they're comfortable with upfront.
312
:But the reality is like if you're not doing it, number one, I know your competitors are
right.
313
:And the more you can get
314
:repetitive lower level tasks out of the hands of you and your team, the more that you can
focus on higher level tasks, which then kind of increases the potential and the capacity
315
:of your business, right?
316
:And so I would say a lot of the biggest mistakes I see is that these small businesses are
just scared of the technology and just don't do anything in my opinion.
317
:ah But if they do move forward, it's some of the things that we talked about.
318
:They try and do too much with it.
319
:They don't really think through what it is that they're building.
320
:I mean, those are really kind of the big ones that we see.
321
:Got it.
322
:So for what I got from there, just start and then as you said, start simple and then grow
beyond that.
323
:Awesome.
324
:And then is there anything else that you'd possibly like to share that we possibly did not
talk about?
325
:No, I mean, I would say I do.
326
:I like to get on these podcasts because a lot of the people that we're talking to and it's
funny because I come from this world and so it's always a shock when I talk to someone
327
:they don't like, oh, I don't know what no code is.
328
:And from my world, I'm like, it's my life.
329
:So it's like, how could you not know?
330
:But but it really is the people that don't know are the ones that can benefit the most.
331
:And so I think it's just part of what I'm trying to do is just educate.
332
:you know, a lot of small businesses to, to just realize that there's just so much more
that is accessible now.
333
:And AI is only accelerating that process.
334
:Right.
335
:And I will say again, that like, you know, I still, I still talk to people that won't send
text message, you know, like you, technology will pass you by.
336
:And at some point, if you get too far behind, it's going to be tough to catch up.
337
:And so I would say really just educate yourselves and I'm happy to be a resource.
338
:that's why I try and share a lot of my knowledge on these podcasts, because I just see so
many business owners that just don't know that.
339
:I think that there's always this perception that building a mobile app is going to be a
million dollars.
340
:And that's just not true.
341
:Yeah, that's good.
342
:That's so good to know.
343
:And then also for those businesses that are, you know, trying not to stay behind, is there
any resources that you have that you know, you could possibly share with people so they
344
:can stay up with technology?
345
:Yeah, I mean, a good one is so if you go on our website, so our website is
www.drivephase.co.
346
:So it's D-R-I-V-E-P-H-A-S-E.co.
347
:It's on the main link, I believe.
348
:It's a no code ebook that we pulled together that you can download for free right on
there.
349
:So it talks about the benefits, the downsides and some of the the major no code platforms.
350
:But the beauty is.
351
:You can go on YouTube now.
352
:You can go on Udemy now.
353
:You can go on a lot of these resources that won't cost you a lot.
354
:But I tell people kind of going back to one of my earlier things is I just learned by
building that that food truck app.
355
:Right.
356
:And and and I built something that I cared about.
357
:So I took it more seriously and it made the learning more efficient.
358
:And so I tell people just go build something.
359
:You know, if your first one's a piece of crap, that's fine.
360
:You know, it, you know, but but just
361
:Like I told you earlier, just go start and do something if it is something, you know, if
you don't want to do it, then you don't have to.
362
:I'm not forcing anyone.
363
:But but if it is something that you're interested in, just go go build something like it.
364
:You know, I play basketball once a week with a couple of guys from a neighborhood, old man
basketball.
365
:And so I built a like a texting registration system so we know how many people are coming.
366
:It's just, you know, I just built, you know, I just built stupid things like that that
probably have, you know, relatively small value.
367
:But but it's just.
368
:you know, fun to keep the skills up, but it's just practice.
369
:so go find things like that to build, and it can turn into something more meaningful for
your business.
370
:Awesome.
371
:And you did mention your website, which we'll be sure to put that in the description.
372
:If someone is looking to reach out to you or get in contact with you, what's the best way
to do that?
373
:Really is on the website.
374
:I've got probably close to a million call to actions on there to schedule a free
consultation.
375
:so that's really, and like I said, I mean, that is a free consultation.
376
:I, know, I'm not a, a hard sales type of person.
377
:I like to just hear what are your problems and I can give you, okay, we'll hear some
things you could think about.
378
:And then from there, if they're interested in working on this, I'm absolutely happy to
work with them.
379
:that free consultation truly is a free consultation.
380
:We'll, we'll let you know what we think, what your options are, what's possible.
381
:And then, but yeah, that free consultation is probably the best resource.
382
:I know that's great to know.
383
:Well, San, thank you so much.
384
:Today was, you know, very, was a pleasure to get to know you a little bit more and I did
enjoy your conversation.
385
:But so thank you so much and you have a great day.
